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ok what was durans win loss record compared to robinsons????
Roberto Duran vs. Sugar Ray Robinson
An argument could be made for either fighter been ranked top P4P. However, if we take a closer look and apply five elements to evaluate their place in history, we can relatively accurately determine who is more deserving of the top ranking. Below are the 5 elements:
accomplishments (prime and past prime)
skills
desire
longevity
talent
I give different weights to each element. I typically give weights as follow: accomplishments (40%), skills (25%), desire (20%), longevity (10%), and talent (5%). These are the weights that I'm currently using. I might adjust them in the future (give or take 5%)but the general principle is the same; accomplishments weights higher, followed by skills and desire, longevity, and talent (which happens to weight very low).
Accomplishment is the big one, because there are no questions there. Within accomplishments, there are two sub-categories: Prime and past prime versions. That?s what typically separate a top 5 all time great P4P from a number 15. That is what might separate a fighter like Duran from a fighter like Chavez or a fighter like Pep from a fighter like Salvador Sanchez. What did they manage to do when they were past their prime or past their best weight class? Consequently, this also adds into the ?desire? category (another element that weights high).
Let?s start the comparisons:
Longevity:
Duran = Only fighter in boxing history that fought in FIVE different decades and managed to score a victory in each one of those decades.
Robinson = Fought until his 40s. And fought in three different decades.
Winner = Duran
Skills:
Both fighters are two of the most skillful fighters to ever live. Slipping punches, body punching, aggression, defense (in the offensive mode) were some attributes that Duran had. Jab, combination punching, accuracy, and ring generalship were some of the attributes Robinson had.
Winner = Draw.
Talent:
Both fighters were talented, but I give the edge to Robinson. He was faster (foot and hand) than Duran. Both had great chins. Duran had a little more power. But Robinson also had punching power. Robinson was more athletically gifted than Duran, but not by much.
Winner = Robinson
Desire:
I?m not even going to debate this point to much. Both guys showed that desire. Sure, Duran quit in his ?no mas?. But people seem to downgrade the fact that Robinson did ?quit? too in his fight with Maxin. Sure, the heat was unbearable. But Maxin said it better; he (Max) had no air-conditioner on his corner.
Accomplishments:
This should be the element that ultimately determine who is the best P4P.
And an element that requires some serious analysis. In order to do so, we must compare both fighters at
1- Their best weight class (135 vs. 147)
2- In their primes
3- When they were past their primes
4- At other weight classes above their best
[ November 22, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Valentino ]
ok what was durans win loss record compared to robinsons????
Very faulty way of looking at accomplishments by ?wins? and ?losses?.Originally posted by gregg:
ok what was durans win loss record compared to robinsons????
Take a look at who Duran beat in his best weight and in his prime. And then take a look at how those fighters (at 135 lbs in the 1970s) were rated and ranked and the skills those fighters possessed. Also take a look if those fighters that challenged Duran were at their best weight class, the accomplishments they had, and if they were in their primes.
Do the same with Robinson at 147 lbs.
Then take a look at what Duran and Robinson accomplished (forget about the defeats) when they were past their primes and at weights above their best. Who they fought and how they fared against those fighters. If they lose?so what? They were ABOVE their best weight class, but more importantly, they were past their primes.
People tend to overrate Robinson at 160 lbs. They call him the best ?Middleweight of all time?. Well, how can anyone call a fighter that loses his title FIVE times the best at that weight class? Especially when he loses against fighters that don?t even rank top 10 or 12 in that particular weight class historically speaking. Then he defeats an all time great named Basilio. But people forget that Basilio was smaller and that Basilio was a Welterweight that was fighting Robinson at Middleweight. And that Basilio arguably won both fights.
Now, Robinson was past his prime and above his best weight class. That?s why losing all those fights at 160 lbs should mean NOTHING when ranking him ALL TIME P4P. But they should have a LOT of weight when awarding him the title of ?best Middlweight of all time?.
Robinson would defeat Duran at welterweight and any weight above that
Maybe so. But that is not the argument here. The argument is who was the GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME.Originally posted by Crocodillo:
Robinson would defeat Duran at welterweight and any weight above that
For instance, we can say that Hopkins would have beaten the crap out of Pep if they fought at 160 lbs. It means nothing.
Pep was the greater fighter. And even if Hopkins happened to have more "talent" or "skills" than Pep (which is NOT the case, by the way)...Pep still has the greater accomplishments and longevity. Those two add to 50% of the equation...while Skills and Talent only adds for 25%.
So, Pep STILL comes on top in the list of who was GREATEST.
Another point: Iran Barkley defeated Hearns. Would any one rank Barkley as a greater fighter ALL TIME? Barkley was better than Hearns face to face. But when people use other elements like "accomplishments"...then Barkley falls CONSIDERABLY short.
Duran did NOT have more power than Robinsion! Even P4P Ray hit harder.
Another thing...who Robinson defeated at 147 lbs. that could be considered better than Leonard or even Palomino?Originally posted by Crocodillo:
Robinson would defeat Duran at welterweight and any weight above that
Robinson was the GREATEST at 147 lbs. But that doesn't mean that a person that was NOT greater at that particular weight class couldn't score a victory over him.
If Basora managed to draw with him...it is not unforeseable to see the Duran that beat Palomino and Leonard score an upset victory over the same version of Robinson. Of course that was a Pre-WORLD-CHAMPION Robinson.
A World-Champion version of Robinson would have probably be a different story.
But you see my point.
Tell that to the likes of Buchanan (top 10 Lightweight all time), De Jesus (top 12 lightweight all time), Marcel (a man that went on defeating Arguello), and even Leonard.Originally posted by Xplosive:
Duran did NOT have more power than Robinsion! Even P4P Ray hit harder.
People say that Leonard fought a dumb fight. The fact is, Duran landed a right hand from the outside in the second round that had Leonard practically gone all the way until the 7th round.
That's from Leonard's own mouth.
Another thing...you remember a post-lightweight Duran. You don't remember the level of opposition he was fighting and hurting at 135 lbs. Those guys were great fighters with great chins.
Duran power dissapeared when he moved up in weight and started losing a step or two. Although, Moorer might say otherwise too.
Aw, come on SRR was /is the ultimate fighter.
Duran quit like a little girl against SRL, (No Mas), remember.
And don't even bother to bring up the Maxim fight.
"One should emulate the Boxer rather than the Gladiator, since the boxer need only clench his fists".
Marcus Aurelius
BTW- I'm a big fan of Duran, but ENOUGH ABOUT HIM already! There's now 3 fucking threads soley devoted to licking his nuts! Open a thread about ANOTHER all time great. Maybe a NON-Latino for a change.
I will grant that Robinson had more ONE-PUNCH power.
buchanan is not a top 10 lightweight of all time...not even close..plus he got punched in the BALLSOriginally posted by Valentino:
Tell that to the likes of Buchanan (top 10 Lightweight all time), De Jesus (top 12 lightweight all time), Marcel (a man that went on defeating Arguello), and even Leonard.
People say that Leonard fought a dumb fight. The fact is, Duran landed a right hand from the outside in the second round that had Leonard practically gone all the way until the 7th round.
That's from Leonard's own mouth.
Another thing...you remember a post-lightweight Duran. You don't remember the level of opposition he was fighting and hurting at 135 lbs. Those guys were great fighters with great chins.
Duran power dissapeared when he moved up in weight and started losing a step or two. Although, Moorer might say otherwise too.
It's a damn shame there is no footage on film of Ray Robinson at Welterweight. I mean, they have footage of him way before as an amateur, yet they conveniently missed capturing him on film during his peak from 1945 to 1950.
NONE of those guys were taken out in brutal fashion from one punch, or combination ect. Even at lightweight(where Duran hit very hard) he was never a one-punch KO artist. He was an accumulation puncher. Robinsion was a one punch artist, and reguraly finished guys off with single punches/combos! Hell, Ray once KILLED a man with a single left hook!Originally posted by Valentino:
Tell that to the likes of Buchanan (top 10 Lightweight all time), De Jesus (top 12 lightweight all time), Marcel (a man that went on defeating Arguello), and even Leonard.
People say that Leonard fought a dumb fight. The fact is, Duran landed a right hand from the outside in the second round that had Leonard practically gone all the way until the 7th round.
That's from Leonard's own mouth.
Another thing...you remember a post-lightweight Duran. You don't remember the level of opposition he was fighting and hurting at 135 lbs. Those guys were great fighters with great chins.
Duran power dissapeared when he moved up in weight and started losing a step or two. Although, Moorer might say otherwise too.
Why?Originally posted by Lefty:
Aw, come on SRR was /is the ultimate fighter.
Duran quit like a little girl against SRL, (No Mas), remember.
And don't even bother to bring up the Maxim fight.
Because of the heat? Or do you believe that Maxim didn?t feel the same heat? Did he have an air conditioner on his corner (same question Maxim asked when his victory was downgraded)?
Duran quit. But he quit at 147 lbs. The man was not even in his prime (which was obviously in the 135 lbs). The man was fighting professional since the 1960s! He quit in the 1980s!!! And he quit not because of a ?beating? that Leonard was inflicting to him. He quit, because he got tired of following Leonard around and of the taunting.
The fact remains that the man fought another 20 years and defeated younger and bigger guys. Even when he was clearly WAY past his prime.
Duran broke somebody?s spirit. And he did that against a guy that was bigger, younger, and faster.Originally posted by Xplosive:
NONE of those guys were taken out in brutal fashion from one punch, or combination ect. Even at lightweight(where Duran hit very hard) he was never a one-punch KO artist. He was an accumulation puncher. Robinsion was a one punch artist, and reguraly finished guys off with single punches/combos! Hell, Ray once KILLED a man with a single left hook!
Knocking out a few good fighters is not the same as breaking down somebody like De Jesus (twice), Buchanan, or putting somebody like Leonard in ?la la land? for 5 rounds (after one punched landed).
One punch power? Sure, Robinson.
But that doesn?t mean that Duran didn?t have damaging power.
It is like comparing Trinidad (a one-punch powerhouse) with Chavez (a heavy-handed destroyer). Both guys had damaging power in their punches. One took guys out with one punch. The other with an accumulation of ass-whipping punches.
Got to laugh, I'm sure you read the same articles as me.Originally posted by Valentino:
Why?
Because of the heat? Or do you believe that Maxim didn?t feel the same heat? Did he have an air conditioner on his corner (same question Maxim asked when his victory was downgraded)?
Duran quit. But he quit at 147 lbs. The man was not even in his prime (which was obviously in the 135 lbs). The man was fighting professional since the 1960s! He quit in the 1980s!!! And he quit not because of a ?beating? that Leonard was inflicting to him. He quit, because he got tired of following Leonard around and of the taunting.
The fact remains that the man fought another 20 years and defeated younger and bigger guys. Even when he was clearly WAY past his prime.
No Mas, remember, even his own countrymen turned on him.
"One should emulate the Boxer rather than the Gladiator, since the boxer need only clench his fists".
Marcus Aurelius
Buchanan is arguably the best fighter (in the last 50 years) coming out of the UK. And one of the best Lightweight fighters of all time. Arguably a top 10 lightweight. And he as well as De Jesus could have dominated that weight class for a decade if not because of fate. Sure fate = Duran.Originally posted by Crocodillo:
buchanan is not a top 10 lightweight of all time...not even close..plus he got punched in the BALLS
Who do you rank above Buchanan in the 135 lbs historically speaking?
You used the term ?no way?. But unless you can support that argument, I recommend not to use that term.
Latinos don't get enough love all-time. Do you and Musze feel threatened or something? I've always gotten the feeling that you two are offended whenever anyone ranks a Latino over a brother.Originally posted by Xplosive:
BTW- I'm a big fan of Duran, but ENOUGH ABOUT HIM already! There's now 3 fucking threads soley devoted to licking his nuts! Open a thread about ANOTHER all time great. Maybe a NON-Latino for a change.
BTW, why didn't you ever complain about the multiple Mosley, Mayweather, and RJJ threads created in the past? [img]graemlins/headscratch.gif[/img]
We seldom talk about Duran and now you're sick of it?
[ November 22, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]
Have you ever seen Ray at WW? Thank you.Originally posted by Xplosive:
NONE of those guys were taken out in brutal fashion from one punch, or combination ect. Even at lightweight(where Duran hit very hard) he was never a one-punch KO artist. He was an accumulation puncher. Robinsion was a one punch artist, and reguraly finished guys off with single punches/combos! Hell, Ray once KILLED a man with a single left hook!
So what?Originally posted by Lefty:
Got to laugh, I'm sure you read the same articles as me.
No Mas, remember, even his own countrymen turned on him.
That doesn?t take away from his other accomplishments. He quit and he loses points for quitting. That is in fact, the reason he is ARGUABLY the greatest fighter of all time. IF he would have never quit (out of frustration or anger), then he would have been CLEARLY the greatest fighter of all time.
I?ve never seen Duran quit because of the weather or because somebody is beating him (physically). Robinson quit because he couldn?t take the heat (same heat Maxim experienced).
That doesn?t take away from Robinson either. He simply didn?t paced himself and could have actually died in that fight.
But my point is the same: If you look at things objectively, and argument could be made that Duran is the GREATEST FIGHTER to ever live. I used to rank him number three, until I came with a method of evaluating fighters (to reduce bias) and he turned out to be the number one guy. Followed by Robinson and Amstrong. I can see anyone of those three ranked on top. But I cannot see anyone else. No Ali. No Pep. No Wilder. No Grebb. No Benny Leonard. No Louis.
Only Duran or Robinson or Amstrong.
[ November 22, 2003, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Punchy ]
Chavez quit. Robinson quit. Willie Pep quit. Whittaker quit. Duran quit. Guess what, they were all still great fighters. They quit outside of their primes. Big difference.Originally posted by Lefty:
Got to laugh, I'm sure you read the same articles as me.
No Mas, remember, even his own countrymen turned on him.
[ November 22, 2003, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]
Rebs...PUT A FREAKING FORK IN IT with your constant hispanic this..mexican thatOriginally posted by El Terrible:
Latinos don't get enough love all-time. Do you and Musze feel threatened or something? I've always gotten the feeling that you two are offended whenever anyone ranks a Latino over a brother. [img]graemlins/headscratch.gif[/img]
[img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
They get PLENTY of love all time, and on THIS forum they get TOO much love! I don't have a problem with anybody ranking a Latino, or picking a Latino over a bro. Hell, most of the time I AGREE. But enough already! Latinos are not the only greats in history!Originally posted by El Terrible:
Latinos don't get enough love all-time. Do you and Musze feel threatened or something? I've always gotten the feeling that you two are offended whenever anyone ranks a Latino over a brother. [img]graemlins/headscratch.gif[/img]
BTW- it was YOU who got offended when I suggested Pryor would have beaten Chavez, or that somebody rank "that crackhead" Whitaker over Duran(which I don't btw).
I don't think Latinos are discussed anymore than anyone else. If you want to discuss forgotten fighters like Emille Griffith, Sandy Saddler, Armstrong, etc.. I'm all for it. Hardly anyone here ever shows interest in them. That's why I don't mention them.Originally posted by Xplosive:
They get PLENTY of love all time, and on THIS forum they get TOO much love! I don't have a problem with anybody ranking a Latino, or picking a Latino over a bro. Hell, most of the time I AGREE. But enough already! Latinos are not the only greats in history!
BTW- it was YOU who got offended when I suggested Pryor would have beaten Chavez, or that somebody rank "that crackhead" Whitaker over Duran(which I don't btw).
You're forgetting that for a long time this forum was littered with a shitload of RJJ, Mosley, and Mayweather posts. Today, two of those fighters are on the down. Maybe that's why hardly anyone talks about them that much anymore.
[ November 22, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]
Name one other site that is run by a Mexican-American. You bet your ass I'm going to put us in the spotlight. We're the sport's backbone yet NO ONE else gives up props. There are even Aussie and Euro boxing sites that focus strictly on their boxing scenes. Do we do that here? No. If you don't like me balancing things out then you can leave and post at williepep.com or jakelamotta.com. I hear they're up to 2 posts a day. [img]mex.gif[/img]Originally posted by Crocodillo:
Rebs...PUT A FREAKING FORK IN IT with your constant hispanic this..mexican that
[img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
[ November 22, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]
I don't like excessive Roy threads either. Thats why I hardly ever POSTED on them back-in-the-day. Hell, you & Valentino spent more time talking about Roy than I did. [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]Originally posted by El Terrible:
Latinos don't get enough love all-time. Do you and Musze feel threatened or something? I've always gotten the feeling that you two are offended whenever anyone ranks a Latino over a brother.
BTW, why didn't you ever complain about the multiple Mosley, Mayweather, and RJJ threads created in the past? [img]graemlins/headscratch.gif[/img]
We seldom talk about Duran and now you're sick of it?
The one thing I DON'T like is that on this forum guys like RJ, Pryor, Mosley, and even in some cases Hagler, and Pernell are called overrated, yet Duran, Chavez, Lopez, and Arguello, its like they could all walk on water!
Please not another Latino against the world thread.
I'm disputing if duran is a better fighter than Robinson.
I'm a Mr whitey, so where is my bais based !!.
I tell you where. It's called boxing.
As X said, enough already.
"One should emulate the Boxer rather than the Gladiator, since the boxer need only clench his fists".
Marcus Aurelius
I have the same feeling too. However, I?m not going to play political correctness (PC) in a boxing message board and risk objectively because of PC.Originally posted by El Terrible:
Latinos don't get enough love all-time. Do you and Musze feel threatened or something? I've always gotten the feeling that you two are offended whenever anyone ranks a Latino over a brother.
BTW, why didn't you ever complain about the multiple Mosley, Mayweather, and RJJ threads created in the past? [img]graemlins/headscratch.gif[/img]
We seldom talk about Duran and now you're sick of it?
I?ve noticed the same with others African-Americans (not all), when people bring Larry Bird into the argument in basketball.
I found it bizarre.
Boxing is a sport in which a particular ?oppressed? group is going to deliver a group of great fighters. It used to be the Jews, Irish, Italians, and later the Blacks. The came the Latinos and few scattered Asians. Now are the eastern Europeans.
Soon, we are going to see less African Americans participating (successfully) in boxing. Most are either going to go to College and others with great athletic skills are going to choose basketball and baseball over boxing.
Latinos will last a lot longer. Because, most Latinos come from outside the USA (Mexico, Argentina, Nicaragua, etc). We might see less Puerto Ricans and Mexican Americans, because the opportunities for them are similar to those of the African Americans.
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