Showtime@8PM CST Agbeko vs. Darchinyan (SPOILERS 8:15)

[Jack1000]

For all comments on the IBF Bantamweight Title Fight tonight. Keep everything in this thread.

Jack

Moderator

[Valentino]

I think this is going to be a very good fight.

[Carlos]

Really hope Agbeko wins - anyone know why he took that long assed break after the Sidorenko fight?

[neo_wolf]

Nice win for Agbeko, he out fought Darchinyan.

[Jack1000]

I gave Vic only 3 rounds. I did give Vic a round that Bernstein thought Agbeko controlled. Very sloppy fight and I thought kind of boring because of this. This is a case where if the judges made that 7th round 10-8, it would have made the fight closer but NOT 114-113! At best that should have been a 10-9 Darchinyan round.

On the prelim I thought the ref's call was correct. We had Adjaho turning away before he took a knee. He tried a Fransciso Lorenozo tactic there, but thankfully it did not work! I hope that if Demarco fights Valero he goes back to the type of war that he had with Nick Casell and not like tonight!

Jack

[Rebel]

Good win for Agbeko.

What does Vic do next? Does he go back down to 115? Keep moving up?

[Valentino]

Good win for Agbeko.

What does Vic do next? Does he go back down to 115? Keep moving up?

Should go back down. His power does not have too much effect on bigger fighters.
Or should start BOXING more...instead of brawling.

[Rebel]

I thought he did try to box at times but Agbeko just had an answer for everything. Vic could never consistently land his money shots because Agbeko ducked away from most of his bombs.

[Valentino]

Sadly he lost. I would have love to see him moved up to 122 and fight the KILLERS in that weight class.

[Valdosta]

Why? he would get thrashed. He's a good fighter but not great.

[BKING]

Why? he would get thrashed. He's a good fighter but not great.

And certainly NOT a top 10 P4Per either, as some believed he was going into this fight.

[O-Dogg33]

Vic D was trying to load up and go for the knockout too much. He should have boxed more like he did Mijares and let the knockout come to him.

[Valentino]

And certainly NOT a top 10 P4Per either, as some believed he was going into this fight.

He is the ONLY UNDISPUTED Champ in boxing. He lost to a Champion at a higher weight class.

You don't punish people for challenging themselves! Quite the opposite.

I rather punish Cotto more for losing to Margarito (if the fight was legit) than punishing White Ghost for moving up in weight and losing to Hopkins or JMM moving up in weight and potentially losing to PBF.

Desire to challenge themselves score very high in my book.

[Rebel]

He is the ONLY UNDISPUTED Champ in boxing. He lost to a Champion at a higher weight class.

You don't punish people for challenging themselves! Quite the opposite.

I rather punish Cotto more for losing to Margarito (if the fight was legit) than punishing White Ghost for moving up in weight and losing to Hopkins or JMM moving up in weight and potentially losing to PBF.

Desire to challenge themselves score very high in my book.
He lost to Donaire at flyweight and now to Agbeko at bantamweight.

He won a bunch of titles at 115. So what? It's a weak non-original eight division. He was owned at 112 and 118, two original eight divisions.

He doesn't deserve to be in the top 10 p4p. Top 20? Maybe.

[BKING]

He lost to Donaire at flyweight and now to Agbeko at bantamweight.

He won a bunch of titles at 115. So what? It's a weak non-original eight division. He was owned at 112 and 118, two original eight divisions.

He doesn't deserve to be in the top 10 p4p. Top 20? Maybe.

Exactly.

He won a few titles at 115lbs and happened to become UNDISPUTED. Wonderful.

I don't PUNISH people for accepting challenges, but I also don't OVER REWARD them for LOSING those challenges. He fought Donaire and got brutally stretched. He fought Agbeko and got outpointed.
I'm glad he accepted the challenges, but he lost both fights. I have yet to see Darchinyan rematch Donaire. I don't think we'll see an Agbeko rematch anytime soon either. Gary Shaw's excuse was that Donaire was "disrespectful". What a crock of shit. The real excuse is that it's never fun watching your fighter get KTFO and it doesn't do anything to help your business either.

Paul Williams and Chad Dawson belong in the top 10. Darchinyan does not. Williams and Dawson accept challenges too, but Dawson has yet to lose a fight and Williams has beaten everyone he's ever faced. The difference between Williams and Darchinyan is that Williams rematched his lone nemesis right away and KHTFO!!

I agree with Rebel. Darchinyan might be a borderline top 20 P4P. Top 10? Hell no.

[Rabid Kimba]

No way in hell is Rat Face top ten.

:no:

[Valentino]

He lost to Donaire at flyweight and now to Agbeko at bantamweight.

He won a bunch of titles at 115. So what? It's a weak non-original eight division. He was owned at 112 and 118, two original eight divisions.

He doesn't deserve to be in the top 10 p4p. Top 20? Maybe.

You are not leaving any rooms for when JMM losses to PBF.

In addition...JMM lost to Pac (a fighter that moved up from lower weight division). That did not impact your ranking and neither mine.

You cannot have it both ways.

The man moved up in weight and became undisputed. He then moved up in weight and challenged the BEST Champ...and end up losing.

That's more impressive to me than PBF moving up to 147 lbs and fighting Judah or the weakest Welterweight "chump".

[Valentino]

Exactly.

He won a few titles at 115lbs and happened to become UNDISPUTED. Wonderful.

I don't PUNISH people for accepting challenges, but I also don't OVER REWARD them for LOSING those challenges. He fought Donaire and got brutally stretched. He fought Agbeko and got outpointed.
I'm glad he accepted the challenges, but he lost both fights. I have yet to see Darchinyan rematch Donaire. I don't think we'll see an Agbeko rematch anytime soon either. Gary Shaw's excuse was that Donaire was "disrespectful". What a crock of shit. The real excuse is that it's never fun watching your fighter get KTFO and it doesn't do anything to help your business either.

Paul Williams and Chad Dawson belong in the top 10. Darchinyan does not. Williams and Dawson accept challenges too, but Dawson has yet to lose a fight and Williams has beaten everyone he's ever faced. The difference between Williams and Darchinyan is that Williams rematched his lone nemesis right away and KHTFO!!

I agree with Rebel. Darchinyan might be a borderline top 20 P4P. Top 10? Hell no.

Paul Williams and Chad Dawson do NOT belong in the top 10. They will have to become UNDISPUTED or fight considerably better fighters to be considered top 10, in my book.

[El Profesor]

Agbeko's upper body movement was quite good, but at the same time Vic wasn't putting together combos or going to the body. He was looking for the one big shot.


Also, was it just me or did Vic look "considerably heavier" at this weight? :headscratch:

[BKING]

Paul Williams and Chad Dawson do NOT belong in the top 10. They will have to become UNDISPUTED or fight considerably better fighters to be considered top 10, in my book.

So the criteria for being top 10 P4P is that you have to become undisputed and fight considerably better fighters?

Many of the fighters on your list are NOT Undisputed. For example, Hopkins lost to Calzaghe, beat Pavlik (MW champ who came up to 170lbs), and has been inactive since. He's your #4.

Dawson has fought Harding, Johnson, Tarver 2X, Adamek (a current world champion), etc. How much better is it supposed to get for him? Calzaghe retired before giving Dawson a chance to fight him. Dawson is now going to rematch Johnson, and then possibly fight Hopkins after that.

[Valentino]

I looked at records from 2007-today. If those records lacked 5 fights, then I extended to 5 fights as long as it did not go past 2006. Of my fighters ranked...only PBF had less than 5 fights (covered him until 2006).

Harding fight does not count because it took place outside that time frame.

In addition...Tarver ALREADY lost to a Middleweight (Hopkins) within the time frame I stated above... which means that Dawson defeating him was not enough to move him high. He in essence did what a considerably smaller man managed to do. The victory over Admek is good...but it is the oldest of the fights that qualify for his ranking (2007) and the fight that actually puts him in my top 15. You know...it has been TWO years and SIX fights!

Dawson rematching Johnson and now fighting Hopkins are a good thing for FUTURE considerations. But I am not going to rank him for something he has not done yet.

[Admin]

You are not leaving any rooms for when JMM losses to PBF.

In addition...JMM lost to Pac (a fighter that moved up from lower weight division). That did not impact your ranking and neither mine.

You cannot have it both ways.

The man moved up in weight and became undisputed. He then moved up in weight and challenged the BEST Champ...and end up losing.

That's more impressive to me than PBF moving up to 147 lbs and fighting Judah or the weakest Welterweight "chump".
I'd argue that losing to the much bigger former p4p #1 at 36 years of age is a lot different than getting stretched at 112 and then outpointed convincingly a few years later at 118.

If JMM is even semi-competive, I'll stick him at #3.

[Admin]

Paul Williams and Chad Dawson do NOT belong in the top 10. They will have to become UNDISPUTED or fight considerably better fighters to be considered top 10, in my book.
Williams beat Margarito and Winky Wright, two fighters better than anyone Darchinyan has defeated. Sure Williams lost to Quintana but he avenged his defeat unlike Darchinyan.

Dawson defeated Adamek and Johnson, two fighters arguably better than anyone Darchinyan has ever defeated. Dawson will now attempt to clean up any controversy surrounding his fight with Johnson.

They are byfar more worthy, IMO.

[Valdosta]

Funny I figured Vic losing again would end the debate on who sould be rated higher, him or Williams and Dawson. Williams and Dawson have good enough victories and don't have the losses that Vic does.

[Keiko]

Good win for Agbeko.

What does Vic do next? Does he go back down to 115? Keep moving up?
What about another rematch with Agbeko? I think that's what he wants.

[Rebel]

What about another rematch with Agbeko? I think that's what he wants.
What's the point? He'll just lose another decision.

Maybe he should aim for Montiel, the WBO Champ. He's had luck owning Mexicans. :mex:

[Valdosta]

Agbeko will have to fight Yhonny Perez next which will NOT be an easy fight.

[Valentino]

Williams beat Margarito and Winky Wright, two fighters better than anyone Darchinyan has defeated. Sure Williams lost to Quintana but he avenged his defeat unlike Darchinyan.

Dawson defeated Adamek and Johnson, two fighters arguably better than anyone Darchinyan has ever defeated. Dawson will now attempt to clean up any controversy surrounding his fight with Johnson.

They are byfar more worthy, IMO.

Margo was the earliest of the qualifying fights (2007). And was followed by a defeat at the hands of Quintana (a fighter that was destroyed, previously by Cotto).

He did beat Winky Wright (a very innactive Wright)...and I give him credit for that victory (that's why he is top 15). But in between Quintana and Wright....what did he do?

[BKING]

Dominated and stopped Verno Phillips, who had previously beaten Cory Spinks for a title at 154lbs. Phillips, when Williams fought him, was techically a top three 154lber.

[Valentino]

Verno Phillips? Cory Spinks? Jesus!!!

[BKING]

Verno Phillips? Cory Spinks? Jesus!!!


We'll, we're going by who they beat in their respective divisions right?

At 147lbs, Williams beat Margarito. Williams lost a close decision to Quintana, but KHTFO in the rematch months later.

At 154lbs, there's no real champion there. Williams beat Phillips (which is a pretty decent, and seemingly forgotten win for Williams), who beat Spinks, who was arguably the #1 guy available at 154lbs. Now a days, Spinks is once again a world titlist in that division, which makes Williams dominant victory over Phillips just a little bit more significant. It's a dead division. Nobody has ever beaten Phillips as easily as Williams did. Going into that fight, Phillips was regarded as arguably one of the top three 154lbers in the world along with Forrest and Williams. That was a better win for Williams than Arce was for Darchinyan!

At 160lbs, Williams just beat Wright and Kelly Pavlik wants no part of him.

[Valentino]

You have not convince me yet. We will see what happens later this year. Williams has the skills, I will give him that. Not impressed with Dawson. But then again...it is about accomplishments. So we will see.

[Rebel]

Valentino, just give in already.

Vic has lost twice in the last couple of years and didn't avenge the first defeat and he most likely won't attempt to avenge the second. So what if he became the man at 115? Considering the quality of those wins and the two losses, he's not top 10! :no:

[Valentino]

JMM has not avenged ANY of his defeats. I ranked him # 2.

Hopkins has won 2 of his last 5 fights. I ranked him #4.

As I said...the ONLY fighter that is not in my top 10 and that I would reconsider moving there is Rafael Marquez (he ranked 12 below Williams who was #11).

[Rebel]

JMM has not avenged ANY of his defeats. I ranked him # 2.

Hopkins has won 2 of his last 5 fights. I ranked him #4.

As I said...the ONLY fighter that is not in my top 10 and that I would reconsider moving there is Rafael Marquez (he ranked 12 below Williams who was #11).
Many people don't believe JMM has ever lost. Unless you've never seen the John fight, you can't sit there and tell me he's been thoroughly beaten by someone.

As for a Pac fight, JMM went to Pac's hood and practically begged him for the third fight immediately after their controversial rematch, but Pacquiao decided to move on to easier pickings in Shot Hoya and stationary Hatton.

Bad example.

I guess you'll be the only person on the planet who keeps Vic in the top 10.

[Valentino]

I MIGHT not keep him in the top 10. But I am more inclined to move Baby Marquez to top 10 before I moved Dawson and Williams.

I personally believe I was very unfair moving Marquez out of the top 10.

[Valentino]

Marquez two defeats in the last two years came out of the hands of a fighter that was BIGGER...ranked top 10...and based on (a) bad stoppage (one more round and he would have won by TKO due to vicious cut on Israel's both eye lids) and (b) a point been taken away controversary from Ref.

[Rebel]

Marquez two defeats in the last two years came out of the hands of a fighter that was BIGGER...ranked top 10...and based on (a) bad stoppage (one more round and he would have won by TKO due to vicious cut on Israel's both eye lids) and (b) a point been taken away controversary from Ref.

I don't think Vasquez was bigger. He just had the chin to put up with Marquez's firepower and land some of his darts on Rafa's mediocre chin.

I hope Rafa has something left. I'd like to see him face off against Lopez, Caballero, or one of the FW titlists. It's time for him to move up again before he retires.

[Valdosta]

I didn't think he looked good against the bum in his last fight for the first couple of rounds. He still won easy but he looked slow. I think the Vasquez fights took something out of him. I expect to see the same from Vasquez when he comes back.

[Valdosta]

As for a Pac fight, JMM went to Pac's hood and practically begged him for the third fight immediately after their controversial rematch, but Pacquiao decided to move on to easier pickings in Shot Hoya and stationary Hatton.


You picked them both to beat Pacquiao. When you post stuff like this it makes you look silly. Pacquiao took on the bigger guys and bigger money fights. They were NOT perceived easier fights that is revisionist history at it's worst.

[Valentino]

I didn't think he looked good against the bum in his last fight for the first couple of rounds. He still won easy but he looked slow. I think the Vasquez fights took something out of him. I expect to see the same from Vasquez when he comes back.

That would be a shame.

[Valentino]

You picked them both to beat Pacquiao. When you post stuff like this it makes you look silly. Pacquiao took on the bigger guys and bigger money fights. They were NOT perceived easier fights that is revisionist history at it's worst.

I think my friend (Rebz) just got :owneddance:

[Rebel]

You picked them both to beat Pacquiao. When you post stuff like this it makes you look silly. Pacquiao took on the bigger guys and bigger money fights. They were NOT perceived easier fights that is revisionist history at it's worst.
It's called hindsight. Roach is obviously smarter than most. The man is a genius at putting Pacquiao in fights where he'll shine against perceived threats. That's why he's avoiding JMM. He's too dangerous for Pac to deal with. He'd ruin Pacmania.

Did you hear the latest? Roach won't accept a Cotto fight unless Cotto agrees to 143. Cotto doesn't look like he's going to budge. Good for him. Roach is smart but he's also unreasonable. You want WWs, face WWs at WW.

A WW title fight at 143. That's pretty sad.

[Rebel]

I think my friend (Rebz) just got :owneddance:
No, you just swallowed the other Val's...:222: :lol:

[BKING]

It's called hindsight. Roach is obviously smarter than most. The man is a genius at putting Pacquiao in fights where he'll shine against perceived threats. That's why he's avoiding JMM. He's too dangerous for Pac to deal with. He'd ruin Pacmania.

Did you hear the latest? Roach won't accept a Cotto fight unless Cotto agrees to 143. Cotto doesn't look like he's going to budge. Good for him. Roach is smart but he's also unreasonable. You want WWs, face WWs at WW.

A WW title fight at 143. That's pretty sad.

Avoiding JMM?????????????

Didn't Pacquiao already fight him twice? They fought 2 fights, 24 rounds, and Pacquiao produced 4 (should've been 5) knockdowns. I wouldn't exactly call that avoiding. Anyway, JMM is fighting Mayweather. We've already seen Pacquiao and JMM twice. It's time to see Mayweather, Cotto, and Mosley against these guys.

[Rebel]

Avoiding JMM?????????????

Didn't Pacquiao already fight him twice? They fought 2 fights, 24 rounds, and Pacquiao produced 4 (should've been 5) knockdowns. I wouldn't exactly call that avoiding. Anyway, JMM is fighting Mayweather. We've already seen Pacquiao and JMM twice. It's time to see Mayweather, Cotto, and Mosley against these guys.
There has been 1 knockdown in the last 23 rounds. Keep it real. :slap:

Yes, Pac is avoiding him because he knows he can light up certain names, but Marquez will always be his daddy.

[BKING]

There has been 1 knockdown in the last 23 rounds. Keep it real. :slap:

Yes, Pac is avoiding him because he knows he can light up certain names, but Marquez will always be his daddy.


More like his sloppy, uncordinated little cousin, who can never quite touch the end of the pool in a race before his faster and vastly more resourceful BIGGER cousin! One dives into the pool beautifully and finishes first; the other falls in the pool and finishes behind. :lol:

[Valdosta]

It's called hindsight. Roach is obviously smarter than most. The man is a genius at putting Pacquiao in fights where he'll shine against perceived threats. That's why he's avoiding JMM. He's too dangerous for Pac to deal with. He'd ruin Pacmania.

Did you hear the latest? Roach won't accept a Cotto fight unless Cotto agrees to 143. Cotto doesn't look like he's going to budge. Good for him. Roach is smart but he's also unreasonable. You want WWs, face WWs at WW.

A WW title fight at 143. That's pretty sad.

Avoiding JMM? He's already fought him 2 times and if he beats Floyd guess what? Roach has said JMM will get another shot. Everyone has managers and shit who control there careers that's part of boxing. As for Cotto that is his choice. I certainly don't criticize EITHER fighter for it. You have the JR. WW champion fighting bigger guys so he wants to even things out. In Pac's last fight at 140, he didn;t even weigh the limit he was 138. Cotto probably can't make 143 to healthily so that fight don't need to happen. At the end of the day it don't change that Oscar was supposed to fucking destroy Pacquiao and was the betting favorite. Hatton was about the same odds when Pacquiao fought JMM in the rematch. At the end of the day they were perceived as bigger threats in which you picked BOTH to beat Pacquiao.

[Valdosta]

There has been 1 knockdown in the last 23 rounds. Keep it real. :slap:

Yes, Pac is avoiding him because he knows he can light up certain names, but Marquez will always be his daddy.

I didn't realize that 1 of the Pac-JMM fights ended before round 12. Since when do we pretend certain rounds didn't happen? What makes it worse was JMM CLEARLY held himself up on the ropes to stop another KD in the second fight.

[Valentino]

Avoiding JMM? He's already fought him 2 times and if he beats Floyd guess what? Roach has said JMM will get another shot. Everyone has managers and shit who control there careers that's part of boxing. As for Cotto that is his choice. I certainly don't criticize EITHER fighter for it. You have the JR. WW champion fighting bigger guys so he wants to even things out. In Pac's last fight at 140, he didn;t even weigh the limit he was 138. Cotto probably can't make 143 to healthily so that fight don't need to happen. At the end of the day it don't change that Oscar was supposed to fucking destroy Pacquiao and was the betting favorite. Hatton was about the same odds when Pacquiao fought JMM in the rematch. At the end of the day they were perceived as bigger threats in which you picked BOTH to beat Pacquiao.

He fought ODLH at 147 lbs. Now he cannot fight Cotto at 147 lbs? They are going to hinder Pac's legacy.

[Valdosta]

He fought ODLH at 147 lbs. Now he cannot fight Cotto at 147 lbs? They are going to hinder Pac's legacy.

Yeah but lets be realistic, Oscar had to lose weight to fight Pacquiao. Oscar compromised with Pacquiao as well. I don't buy into catchweights hurting a guys legacy to be honest. if you can't make a certain weight comfortably then turn the fight down. Nobody would blame Cotto for turning down a fight at 143.

[Valentino]

Yeah but lets be realistic, Oscar had to lose weight to fight Pacquiao. Oscar compromised with Pacquiao as well. I don't buy into catchweights hurting a guys legacy to be honest. if you can't make a certain weight comfortably then turn the fight down. Nobody would blame Cotto for turning down a fight at 143.

I agree with you.

But historically (and I'm talking 1970s and before)...fighters fought. Sometimes giving huge weight advantages. That's why I tend to rank them very highly.