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Rebel
12-17-2003, 06:06 PM
This great fighter is seldom mentioned when discussing the featherweight greats of the past. Marty Mulcahey wrote a great article on Saldivar awhile back. I thought I'd post it for those interested in learning more about him.

Forgotten Champ - Vicente Salvidar
by Marty Mulcahey (December 19, 2001)

When great featherweight boxers of the past are discussed, or ranked, one name always seems conspicuously absent. Seemingly, not many fans recall the exciting reign of Vincente Saldivar. Even among his Mexican countrymen, Saldivar is relegated to a second tier of almost greats, despite triumphs that should merit some reverence for him. A shame really, when you consider that in a three year time-span between 1964 and 1967 (in which he made eight title defenses, five by knockout) Saldivar was considered practically unbeatable.

Prior to his first retirement Saldivar lost only once, which was avenged by knockout, and that came on a disputed foul. Saldivar certainly fit the mold of a Mexican idol inside the ring. He was the prototypical Mexican brawler, with a dash of counterpuncher thrown in. Away from the ring Saldivar did not have a outgoing personality, and he talked very little. Nor did he have a particularly macho demeanor. He was a quiet family man who did not like to show off, or want to be seen in bars drinking at all hours. Because of this Saldivar, while respected, was never idolized by the Mexican public the way Ruben Olivares, Salvador Sanchez and Julio Cesar Chavez were.

Anyone wanting to get a clearer picture of what Vincente Saldivar was like in the ring, need only envision a left handed Julio Cesar Chavez in his prime. Saldivar could bang with the best. A stocky 5-3 man with broad shoulders, he possessed the strength of a welterweight. The bodywork of Salidvar was great. His left hook to the bodysoftened opponents up for a inevitable mid round rally, followed by a late round charge the exceptionally fit Saldivar always made. The terrific stamina of Saldivar was attributed to his being born with a unusually slow heart and pulse rate. This allowed him to recover from strenuous activities very rapidly.

But Saldivar was not all brawn. His stout package concealed his technique, which encompassed the use of angles and a solid jab, which were generally overlooked.

Vincente Samuel Saldivar Garcia, was born in the poor quarters of Mexico City, as one of seven children. He had a successful amateur career that was crowned by a Mexican Golden Gloves title at bantamweight. After defeating the best amateurs he turned pro in 1961, at the age of 17. By the end of his first year as a pro, Vincente had already made himself into a main event boxer with a win over veteran Jose Mora.

The next year saw Saldivar established as a contender within Mexico with nine more wins and one disputed loss by disqualification. In his third year, Saldivar was tagged with star potential by the fans when he defeated well regarded Luis Hernandez, Dwight Hawkins, and Felix Guitierrez.

Saldivar had won 19 of 23 bouts by knockout, but was the underdog when he challenged world ranked Juan Ramirez for the Mexican National Featherweight title. He stunned the capital city crowd with a impressive two round destruction of Ramirez.

Saldivar next made noise on the international level, scoring the second upset of his career by taking an easy 10 round decision from future titlist Ismael Laguna. The win earned Saldivar a number two world ranking, and a title shot at ferocious punching Sugar Ramos of Cuba.

Ramos, at 23, near the peak of his abilities, was thought to have a long reign ahead of him. The 21-year-old, and still developing, Saldivar was not given much of a chance to win. Saldivar proved the experts wrong by fighting an intelligent bout. For a change Saldivar came out strong early, outboxing Ramos, darting in and out while avoiding his foe's bombs. Behind the cheers of his countrymen Saldivar took the fight over in the eighth round, after he sensed Ramos was weakening. From that point on, Saldivar gave Ramos a beating, knocking him down in the 10th round. Ramos was saved by the bell, but had nothing left. The champion was not allowed to continue by his corner after one more round of getting battered.

Saldivar was a active champion in his four year reign. Three months after winning the title he defended it against Fino Rosales in the first all Mexican world championship fight. Saldivar next traveled to the USA where he successfully retained his title with a fifteenth round kayo over Raul Rojas.

The reign of Saldivar was highlighted by a trilogy of fights with European champion Howard Winstone. It is one of boxing's most underrated trilogies, probably because Saldivar won all three fights, even if they were, by the slightest of margins. Going into the first Winstone bout, Saldivar had won 21 of his 26 fights by knockout. Winstone, a stylish boxer with superb footwork, would be a different task for Saldivar. But Winstone played against his strong suit by slugging with the more powerful Salidvar, which seemed to work until the late rounds. Again, the stamina of Saldivar proved to be his savior. Saldivar came on strong after eight rounds, this time behind lead right hands that cut Winstone over both eyes. After 15 rounds of great action, Saldivar was awarded a narrow decision win.

The quality of the fight meant a rematch was inevitable. Before the rematch Saldivar traveled home, and defended his title three times in Mexico City. Once against Floyd Robertson (some considered Robertson the 'uncrowned champion') of Ghana by second round knockout. The other two victories came against resilient Mistunori Seki of Japan via 15 round decision, and a seventh round knockout.

Saldivar agreed to a rematch with Winstone in June 1967. A crowd of 30,000 was hoping Winstone would box this time out, even chanting "Don't fight, don 't fight" before the action began. For ten rounds Winstone did well to avoid the charging Saldivar, but never looked in total control. Saldivar soon began to find holes in the tiring Welshman, rocking him with straight right hands. The tenth through fifteenth rounds were full of classic give and take exchanges. It was hard to imagine what kept Winstone up in the 14th round, where he took a significant battering, and was down for a eight count. At the end of the 15 rounds the referee made Saldivar the winner by just half a point.

The epic trio was completed four months later in Mexico City. It was the most one sided of the fights, but still had drama. In this fight Winstone used a stiff jab to control the early rounds. Again, Winstone faded latefrom a combination of body punching and altitude that wore on the proud Welshman. Finally in the twelfth round the corner of Winstone threw in towel. The two combatants became good friends after the three bouts, in spite of a language barrier. During the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City, Winstone was the guest of Saldivar, and they later visited each other's homes.

After the third fight with Winstone, Saldivar shocked the audience by announcing his retirement. Why would a prime Saldivar, who was only 24, retire at the height of his skills? Part of it was that he had just married Mexico's biggest film star, but his dislike for the spotlight also played a role. Those close to him claim he never got over the fact that he was not accepted in the hearts of Mexican fans.

Saldivar's next appearance at a boxing match had him cheering for Howard Winstone when he won the world featherweight title against Mitsunori Seki. Just as surprising as his retirement, was the announcement that Saldivar would make a comeback.

After 21 months away from boxing, Saldivar did not waste time. He challenged, and defeated, Jose Legra who had just held the featherweight title a year earlier. Vincente beat Legra the same way he had others before his retirement. He worked the body early, before stepping up the pace and outworking his foe. Six months later he got a title shot against Johnny Famechon. The young Australian had just defeated the celebrated Fighting Harada, which established Saldivar the underdog once again. But it was as if he had never left boxing. Saldivar proved everyone wrong by beating the champion to the punch early, then knocking Famechon down in the eighth round. Famechon rallied late, but the puffy eyed Saldivar did enough to win unanimously.

What should have been a easy title defense against the ordinary Kuniaki Shibata, turned into a nightmare when Saldivar suffered a fractured cheekbone. Saldivar struggled from the start, battling through a bad cut over his eye before the referee stopped the bout to prevent Salidvar from further punishment.

A 30-year-old Saldivar took an offer to fight legendary Eder Jofre after being inactive for over two years. This time it was obvious that Saldivar had not been in the ring for a long time, as the ring rust was evident from the outset. Except for a 40 second period in the second round, Jofre dominated. In the fourth round the Brazilian tore into the lethargic Saldivar with precise power shots. A big left uppercut ended the fight. Saldivar fell to the canvas, and was counted out for the only time in his career.

After his active boxing days in the ring, Saldivar worked at a gym, becoming a successful trainer. Shockingly, Saldivar died of a heart attack at the age of 42.

Vicente Saldivar
Born: May 3, 1943 Mexico City
Died: July 18, 1985 Mexico
Fought between: 1961-1973
Career Record: 37-3 (26 KO)

1961
Feb 18 Baby Palacios Oaxaca, Mexico KO 1
Mar 22 Frijol Gonzalez Oaxaca, Mexico KO 4
Apr 16 Eduardo Meza Oaxaca, Mexico KO 3
May 20 Babe Lopez Leon, Mexico KO 3
Oct 14 Jose Luis Mora Huachinango, Mexico W 10
Dec 3 Juan Rodriguez Leon, Mexico KO 6

1962
Jan 6 Ernesto Beltran Acapulco, Mexico KO 6
Feb 8 Rosendo Martinez Huachinango, Mexico KO 5
Mar 18 Juan Zavala Tuxtla, Mexico KO 10
Apr 4 Jorge Salazar Matamoros, Mexico KO 4
May 2 Gennaro Gonzalez Mexico City WDQ 8
Jun 27 Indio Fernandez Mexico City KO 6
Aug 22 Alberto Soto Mexico City KO 2
Oct 11 Luis Hernandez Los Mochis, Mexioco KO 1
Nov 17 Jose Lopez Monterrey, Mexico W 10
Dec 16 Jorge Salazar Matamoros, Mexico KO 5
Dec 29 Emiro Durgel Mexico City LDQ 7

1963
Mar 16 Luis Hernandez Los Mochis, Mexico KO 2
Apr 19 Dwight Hawkins Monterrey, Mexico KO 5
Jun 12 Emiro Durgel Mexico City KO 8
Jul 13 Eloy Sanchez Mexico City KO 1
Sep 21 Beresford Francis Mexico City KO 2
Dec 16 Felix Gutierrez Cuernavaca, Mexico KO 3

1964
Feb 8 Juan Ramirez Mexico City KO 2
(Wins Mexican Featherweight Title)
Apr 4 Eduardo Guerrero Mexico City W 12
(Retains Mexican Featherweight Title)
Jun 1 Ismael Laguna Tijuana W 10
Sep 26 Sugar Ramos Mexico City KO 12
(Wins World Featherweight Title)
Dec 6 Delfino Rosales Mexico City KO 11
(Retains World Featherweight Title)

1965
May 7 Raul Rojas Los Angeles KO 15
(Retains World Featherweight Title)
Sep 7 Howard Winstone London W 15
(Retains World Featherweight Title)

1966
Feb 12 Floyd Robertson Mexico City KO 2
(Retains World Featherweight Title)
Aug 7 Mitsunori Seki Mexico City W 15
(Retains World Featherweight Title)

1967
Jan 29 Mitsunori Seki Mexico City KO 7
(Retains World Featherweight Title)
Jun 15 Howard Winstone Cardiff, Wales W 15
(Retains World Featherweight Title)
Oct 14 Howard Winstone Mexico City KO 12
(Retains World Featherweight Title)
Oct 14 Announces Retirement

1968
Inactive

1969
Nov 17 Jose Legra Inglewood, CA W 10

1970
May 9 Johnny Famechon Rome W 15
(Wins WBC, Retains World Featherweight Title)
Dec 11 Kuniaki Shibata Tijuana KO by 14
(Loses World Featherweight Title)

1971
Jul 15 Frankie Crawford Los Angeles W 10

1972
Inactive

1973
Oct 20 Eder Jofre Salvador, Brazil KO by 4
(For WBC and World Featherweight Titles)

[ December 17, 2003, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]

Rebel
12-17-2003, 06:09 PM
How good was Saldivar? For those of you who have seen him, you know he would've been a tough test for any featherweight great in boxing history. He was a southpaw boxer/brawler with power in both hands. I've seen several of his fights and he was the real deal. I personally rate him #4 at featherweight and I believe a case could be made to rank him ahead of Sanchez in my #3 slot.

[ December 17, 2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]

Tam-Tam
12-17-2003, 07:12 PM
#4 is much too high IMO, but it is your list bro.

If anyone knows the circumstances around the Famechon fight, you will also know that it was a public robbery. It wasn't on the level of Famachon-Harada I, but it seems as though people hadn't forgetten the lucky break Johnny recieved before. Thats kind of why i don't hold him in as high regard - take away that win, and he had a incredibly short prime.

Head-to-head he's always going to do well though. VERY strong little guy in there. I think he'd match up very well with Sanchez, and oh man to see him and Hank go at it.

Michael Matos
12-17-2003, 08:17 PM
To touch on the title of the article. Forgotten Champions. That may indeed be the case for a fighter who won a title at 21 retired at 24. Cameback after almost a two year absence won another title at 27 and became essentially a part time prizefighter until his retirement at 30. so in terms of Boxing's life cycle everything he did he did it young and in this case maybe too young to be fully appreciated.

Number two. Timing is evertyhing. Saldivar, Griffith, Benvenuti, Dick Tiger or any other champion of the early to mid 60's had to fight and ply their trade in the shadow of the escapades of Muhammed Ali. There was only so much space for Boxing news and most of that was taken up by Ali. whether it was his fights, his statements, or his refusal to go in the Army. It was all Ali all the time.

Allow me if you will to touch on the Saldivar-Winstone trilogy. not only that but fights in general featuring British fighters challenging for a world title. Living in a British Territory, I can tell you that it is big news, certainly much bigger than when an American fighter fights overseas. If you ask an american Boxing writer on his thoughts or recollections of the Saldivar-Winstone fights you would get a standard recap/summary furnished to the best of his knowledge of them. Now you turn around and ask that same question of a British Boxing writer and you would get an entirely different perspective on the matchups and one certainly more favorable to Saldivar than the Standard American made for the press deadline recap. Check out some of the British Boxing writers not only of today but of generations past and you in all liklihood will notice a slightly different perspective and a more favorable one of fighters often ignored by the American Press.

Rebel
12-17-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Tam-Tam:
#4 is much too high IMO, but it is your list bro.

If anyone knows the circumstances around the Famechon fight, you will also know that it was a public robbery. It wasn't on the level of Famachon-Harada I, but it seems as though people hadn't forgetten the lucky break Johnny recieved before. Thats kind of why i don't hold him in as high regard - take away that win, and he had a incredibly short prime.

Head-to-head he's always going to do well though. VERY strong little guy in there. I think he'd match up very well with Sanchez, and oh man to see him and Hank go at it. Well he made almost as many world title defenses as Sanchez which I find quite impressive. Many rate Sanchez highly and he only reigned for a few years before the accident took his life.

I've never once heard that the Famechon fight was a robbery. I'll have to try to track it down and get it. I'm a bit skeptical mate considering the fact that you believe Monzon lost that one fight where most others disagreed with you. ;)

[ December 17, 2003, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]

Rebel
12-17-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Michael Matos:
To touch on the title of the article. Forgotten Champions. That may indeed be the case for a fighter who won a title at 21 retired at 24. Cameback after almost a two year absence won another title at 27 and became essentially a part time prizefighter until his retirement at 30. so in terms of Boxing's life cycle everything he did he did it young and in this case maybe too young to be fully appreciated.

Number two. Timing is evertyhing. Saldivar, Griffith, Benvenuti, Dick Tiger or any other champion of the early to mid 60's had to fight and ply their trade in the shadow of the escapades of Muhammed Ali. There was only so much space for Boxing news and most of that was taken up by Ali. whether it was his fights, his statements, or his refusal to go in the Army. It was all Ali all the time.

Allow me if you will to touch on the Saldivar-Winstone trilogy. not only that but fights in general featuring British fighters challenging for a world title. Living in a British Territory, I can tell you that it is big news, certainly much bigger than when an American fighter fights overseas. If you ask an american Boxing writer on his thoughts or recollections of the Saldivar-Winstone fights you would get a standard recap/summary furnished to the best of his knowledge of them. Now you turn around and ask that same question of a British Boxing writer and you would get an entirely different perspective on the matchups and one certainly more favorable to Saldivar than the Standard American made for the press deadline recap. Check out some of the British Boxing writers not only of today but of generations past and you in all liklihood will notice a slightly different perspective and a more favorable one of fighters often ignored by the American Press. I agree. I read an article written by a gentleman who attended every Saldivar/Winstone fight and he had nothing but high praises for Saldivar.

Tam-Tam
12-17-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Rebel:

Well he made almost as many world title defenses as Sanchez which I find quite impressive. Many rate Sanchez highly and he only reigned for a few years before the accident took his life.

I've never once heard that the Famechon fight was a robbery. I'll have to try to track it down and get it. I'm a bit skeptical mate considering the fact that you believe Monzon lost that one fight where most others disagreed with you. ;) Ugh, you're free to be skeptical all you want. See the fight for yourself and judge (just like Monzon-Griffith II, which by the way, regardless of what Joonie and his forum think, I believe was very close) it then. And I believe perhaps you need to read some more accounts of Famechon-Saldivar, you'll find most people think it wasn't a fair decision.

Secondly, Sanchez was a much better talent then Saldivar, which is why he gets the free pass in terms of shortness of career. He didn't make the choice either, he had it made for him. I believe that to be a big sticking point for me. Im against guy's retiring in the middle of their prime as far as rankings them go. Thats why I rank Marciano harshly as well.

Joonie73
12-18-2003, 12:18 AM
I haven't seen Saldivar v. Famechon, so no comment.

Tam, vote on the 1983 v. 1973 match-ups. I (& I am sure the rest of the forum) would greatly appreciate your insights, as you are one of the few who have seen an abundant number of some of these fighters. Further, as a general matter, I respect your capacity to break down fighters/fights a great deal.

Tam-Tam
12-18-2003, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Joonie73:
I haven't seen Saldivar v. Famechon, so no comment.

Tam, vote on the 1983 v. 1973 match-ups. I (& I am sure the rest of the forum) would greatly appreciate your insights, as you are one of the few who have seen an abundant number of some of these fighters. Further, as a general matter, I respect your capacity to break down fighters/fights a great deal. I just had a look at that thread about 30 minutes ago. My jaaw hit the ground when i thought of the match-ups that are going to be involved. Just the first one is giving me problems (Chang-Canto) so Im going to need about half an hour to work through it.

And thanks for the kind words Joonie. It's much appreciated.

Now, if only i could find some more time in the day..

Joonie73
12-18-2003, 12:40 AM
Great; again, it's only a few months since we've met but I already consider you one of the sharpest posters at either fora.

Also 2 questions:

1. How much of Hong have you seen?

2. I actually find Pedroza v. Marcel the hardest to handicap; I didn't even try. Am I alone in this?


Originally posted by Tam-Tam:

I just had a look at that thread about 30 minutes ago. My jaaw hit the ground when i thought of the match-ups that are going to be involved. Just the first one is giving me problems (Chang-Canto) so Im going to need about half an hour to work through it.

And thanks for the kind words Joonie. It's much appreciated.

Now, if only i could find some more time in the day..

Joonie73
12-18-2003, 12:41 AM
LOL, if each fight is going to take you a while to breakdown, then you can submit 1 prediction per day, as these match-ups will be talked about for a few weeks smile.gif


Originally posted by Tam-Tam:

I just had a look at that thread about 30 minutes ago. My jaaw hit the ground when i thought of the match-ups that are going to be involved. Just the first one is giving me problems (Chang-Canto) so Im going to need about half an hour to work through it.

And thanks for the kind words Joonie. It's much appreciated.

Now, if only i could find some more time in the day..

Tam-Tam
12-18-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Joonie73:
Great; again, it's only a few months since we've met but I already consider you one of the sharpest posters at either fora.

Also 2 questions:

1. How much of Hong have you seen?

2. I actually find Pedroza v. Marcel the hardest to handicap; I didn't even try. Am I alone in this?

Oh, Im sharp as a tack when my mind is pointed in the right direction. I tend to get distracted easily ;)

But onto the questions:

1. Not a great deal, and Im openly assuming he's not at his best in these either. Zamora I, Kasahara (I thought he looked good here) and I believe (bad video) Yum I. It'll be hard for me to be accurate when/if I give my prediction on that fight and I won't be arguging with too much vigor if someone disagree's with me.

2. No, not at all. For me, this fight is difficult because of Eusibio, not Ernesto. Actually anyone with Pedroza is tough to handicap. Which is odd, because he's clearly a great feather, but I'd find it hard to handicap him and Sanchez (a great feather) just like I'd struggle with him and a fighter of Danny Lopez's (a less then great feather, but very good IMO) ilk. He's just a hard man to play prophet with and feel confident due to his style.

Joonie73
12-18-2003, 01:00 AM
On Hong, that's more than anyone else at Delphi except myself, I believe. So your contribution would still be valuable. And I am sure people will be sick of hearing just my take on the Korean fighters anyways smile.gif

Hong looked terrible in Zamora I; the 2nd fight is closer & indeed the fight should have been stopped in round 8 or 9, as Zamora was out on his feet & unable to defend himself (this may be the most controversial fight ever held in Korea). Hong was way past his prime v. Kasahara. Hong v. Yum I exists? Holy shit! That fight doesn't even exist in Korea, LOL. I suggest Hong v. Sukothai & Arnold Taylor for prime Hong; he looks awesome in both. Hong v. Carrasquilla is a legendary fight, quite possibly the most famous sporting moment in Korean history.


Originally posted by Tam-Tam:

Oh, Im sharp as a tack when my mind is pointed in the right direction. I tend to get distracted easily ;)

But onto the questions:

1. Not a great deal, and Im openly assuming he's not at his best in these either. Zamora I, Kasahara (I thought he looked good here) and I believe (bad video) Yum I. It'll be hard for me to be accurate when/if I give my prediction on that fight and I won't be arguging with too much vigor if someone disagree's with me.

2. No, not at all. For me, this fight is difficult because of Eusibio, not Ernesto. Actually anyone with Pedroza is tough to handicap. Which is odd, because he's clearly a great feather, but I'd find it hard to handicap him and Sanchez (a great feather) just like I'd struggle with him and a fighter of Danny Lopez's (a less then great feather, but very good IMO) ilk. He's just a hard man to play prophet with and feel confident due to his style.

[ December 18, 2003, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Joonie73 ]

Tam-Tam
12-18-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Joonie73:
On Hong, that's more than anyone else at Delphi except myself, I believe. So your contribution would still be valuable. And I am sure people will be sick of hearing just my take on the Korean fighters anyways smile.gif

Hong looked terrible in Zamora I; the 2nd fight is closer & indeed the fight should have been stopped in round 8 or 9, as Zamora was out on his feet & unable to defend himself (this may be the most controversial fight ever held in Korea). Hong was way past his prime v. Kasahara. Hong v. Yum I exists? Holy shit! That fight doesn't even exist in Korea, LOL. I suggest Hong v. Sukothai & Arnold Taylor for prime Hong; he looks awesome in both. Hong v. Carrasquilla is a legendary fight, quite possibly the most famous sporting moment in Korean history.

1. Well, I'll put foward what I can anyway. With Hong-Yum I, I've seen the fight, but I am not in posession of it. I saw this fight about 5 years ago when I first got into trading over the internet and I obtained it of a Thai trader. (This might actually be the same guy who I obtained Gomez-Yum off of)

Now, like I said before I THINK it was Yum I, but the video was poor and (of course) I don't understand the language on the audio track.

Another trader tried to convince me to include the Carrasquilla fight in a deal. Me being ever so shrewd with the business, balked and went for a better copy of Whitaker-Nelson (LOL!) instead. Yes, I believe I made the right choice.