Roberto Duran vs. Sugar Ray Robinson [Archive]

Valentino

11-22-2003, 07:58 AM

Roberto Duran vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

An argument could be made for either fighter been ranked top P4P. However, if we take a closer look and apply five elements to evaluate their place in history, we can relatively accurately determine who is more deserving of the top ranking. Below are the 5 elements:

accomplishments (prime and past prime)
skills
desire
longevity
talent

I give different weights to each element. I typically give weights as follow: accomplishments (40%), skills (25%), desire (20%), longevity (10%), and talent (5%). These are the weights that I'm currently using. I might adjust them in the future (give or take 5%)but the general principle is the same; accomplishments weights higher, followed by skills and desire, longevity, and talent (which happens to weight very low).

Accomplishment is the big one, because there are no questions there. Within accomplishments, there are two sub-categories: Prime and past prime versions. That?s what typically separate a top 5 all time great P4P from a number 15. That is what might separate a fighter like Duran from a fighter like Chavez or a fighter like Pep from a fighter like Salvador Sanchez. What did they manage to do when they were past their prime or past their best weight class? Consequently, this also adds into the ?desire? category (another element that weights high).

Let?s start the comparisons:

Longevity:

Duran = Only fighter in boxing history that fought in FIVE different decades and managed to score a victory in each one of those decades.

Robinson = Fought until his 40s. And fought in three different decades.

Winner = Duran

Skills:

Both fighters are two of the most skillful fighters to ever live. Slipping punches, body punching, aggression, defense (in the offensive mode) were some attributes that Duran had. Jab, combination punching, accuracy, and ring generalship were some of the attributes Robinson had.

Winner = Draw.

Talent:

Both fighters were talented, but I give the edge to Robinson. He was faster (foot and hand) than Duran. Both had great chins. Duran had a little more power. But Robinson also had punching power. Robinson was more athletically gifted than Duran, but not by much.

Winner = Robinson

Desire:

I?m not even going to debate this point to much. Both guys showed that desire. Sure, Duran quit in his ?no mas?. But people seem to downgrade the fact that Robinson did ?quit? too in his fight with Maxin. Sure, the heat was unbearable. But Maxin said it better; he (Max) had no air-conditioner on his corner.

Accomplishments:

This should be the element that ultimately determine who is the best P4P.

And an element that requires some serious analysis. In order to do so, we must compare both fighters at

1- Their best weight class (135 vs. 147)
2- In their primes
3- When they were past their primes
4- At other weight classes above their best

[ November 22, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Valentino ]

gregg

11-22-2003, 08:05 AM

ok what was durans win loss record compared to robinsons????

Valentino

11-22-2003, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by gregg:
ok what was durans win loss record compared to robinsons???? Very faulty way of looking at accomplishments by ?wins? and ?losses?.

Take a look at who Duran beat in his best weight and in his prime. And then take a look at how those fighters (at 135 lbs in the 1970s) were rated and ranked and the skills those fighters possessed. Also take a look if those fighters that challenged Duran were at their best weight class, the accomplishments they had, and if they were in their primes.

Do the same with Robinson at 147 lbs.

Then take a look at what Duran and Robinson accomplished (forget about the defeats) when they were past their primes and at weights above their best. Who they fought and how they fared against those fighters. If they lose?so what? They were ABOVE their best weight class, but more importantly, they were past their primes.

People tend to overrate Robinson at 160 lbs. They call him the best ?Middleweight of all time?. Well, how can anyone call a fighter that loses his title FIVE times the best at that weight class? Especially when he loses against fighters that don?t even rank top 10 or 12 in that particular weight class historically speaking. Then he defeats an all time great named Basilio. But people forget that Basilio was smaller and that Basilio was a Welterweight that was fighting Robinson at Middleweight. And that Basilio arguably won both fights.

Now, Robinson was past his prime and above his best weight class. That?s why losing all those fights at 160 lbs should mean NOTHING when ranking him ALL TIME P4P. But they should have a LOT of weight when awarding him the title of ?best Middlweight of all time?.

Crocodillo

11-22-2003, 08:17 AM

Robinson would defeat Duran at welterweight and any weight above that

Valentino

11-22-2003, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by Crocodillo:
Robinson would defeat Duran at welterweight and any weight above that Maybe so. But that is not the argument here. The argument is who was the GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME.

For instance, we can say that Hopkins would have beaten the crap out of Pep if they fought at 160 lbs. It means nothing.

Pep was the greater fighter. And even if Hopkins happened to have more "talent" or "skills" than Pep (which is NOT the case, by the way)...Pep still has the greater accomplishments and longevity. Those two add to 50% of the equation...while Skills and Talent only adds for 25%.

So, Pep STILL comes on top in the list of who was GREATEST.

Another point: Iran Barkley defeated Hearns. Would any one rank Barkley as a greater fighter ALL TIME? Barkley was better than Hearns face to face. But when people use other elements like "accomplishments"...then Barkley falls CONSIDERABLY short.

Xplosive

11-22-2003, 08:34 AM

Duran did NOT have more power than Robinsion! Even P4P Ray hit harder.

Valentino

11-22-2003, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Crocodillo:
Robinson would defeat Duran at welterweight and any weight above that Another thing...who Robinson defeated at 147 lbs. that could be considered better than Leonard or even Palomino?

Robinson was the GREATEST at 147 lbs. But that doesn't mean that a person that was NOT greater at that particular weight class couldn't score a victory over him.

If Basora managed to draw with him...it is not unforeseable to see the Duran that beat Palomino and Leonard score an upset victory over the same version of Robinson. Of course that was a Pre-WORLD-CHAMPION Robinson.

A World-Champion version of Robinson would have probably be a different story.

But you see my point.

Valentino

11-22-2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by Xplosive:
Duran did NOT have more power than Robinsion! Even P4P Ray hit harder. Tell that to the likes of Buchanan (top 10 Lightweight all time), De Jesus (top 12 lightweight all time), Marcel (a man that went on defeating Arguello), and even Leonard.

People say that Leonard fought a dumb fight. The fact is, Duran landed a right hand from the outside in the second round that had Leonard practically gone all the way until the 7th round.

That's from Leonard's own mouth.

Another thing...you remember a post-lightweight Duran. You don't remember the level of opposition he was fighting and hurting at 135 lbs. Those guys were great fighters with great chins.

Duran power dissapeared when he moved up in weight and started losing a step or two. Although, Moorer might say otherwise too.

Xplosive

11-22-2003, 08:42 AM

BTW- I'm a big fan of Duran, but ENOUGH ABOUT HIM already! There's now 3 fucking threads soley devoted to licking his nuts! Open a thread about ANOTHER all time great. Maybe a NON-Latino for a change.

Lefty

11-22-2003, 08:42 AM

Aw, come on SRR was /is the ultimate fighter.
Duran quit like a little girl against SRL, (No Mas), remember.

And don't even bother to bring up the Maxim fight.

Valentino

11-22-2003, 08:43 AM

I will grant that Robinson had more ONE-PUNCH power.

Crocodillo

11-22-2003, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Valentino:

Tell that to the likes of Buchanan (top 10 Lightweight all time), De Jesus (top 12 lightweight all time), Marcel (a man that went on defeating Arguello), and even Leonard.

People say that Leonard fought a dumb fight. The fact is, Duran landed a right hand from the outside in the second round that had Leonard practically gone all the way until the 7th round.

That's from Leonard's own mouth.

Another thing...you remember a post-lightweight Duran. You don't remember the level of opposition he was fighting and hurting at 135 lbs. Those guys were great fighters with great chins.

Duran power dissapeared when he moved up in weight and started losing a step or two. Although, Moorer might say otherwise too. buchanan is not a top 10 lightweight of all time...not even close..plus he got punched in the BALLS

Punchy

11-22-2003, 08:44 AM

It's a damn shame there is no footage on film of Ray Robinson at Welterweight. I mean, they have footage of him way before as an amateur, yet they conveniently missed capturing him on film during his peak from 1945 to 1950.

Xplosive

11-22-2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Valentino:

Tell that to the likes of Buchanan (top 10 Lightweight all time), De Jesus (top 12 lightweight all time), Marcel (a man that went on defeating Arguello), and even Leonard.

People say that Leonard fought a dumb fight. The fact is, Duran landed a right hand from the outside in the second round that had Leonard practically gone all the way until the 7th round.

That's from Leonard's own mouth.

Another thing...you remember a post-lightweight Duran. You don't remember the level of opposition he was fighting and hurting at 135 lbs. Those guys were great fighters with great chins.

Duran power dissapeared when he moved up in weight and started losing a step or two. Although, Moorer might say otherwise too. NONE of those guys were taken out in brutal fashion from one punch, or combination ect. Even at lightweight(where Duran hit very hard) he was never a one-punch KO artist. He was an accumulation puncher. Robinsion was a one punch artist, and reguraly finished guys off with single punches/combos! Hell, Ray once KILLED a man with a single left hook!

Valentino

11-22-2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Lefty:
Aw, come on SRR was /is the ultimate fighter.
Duran quit like a little girl against SRL, (No Mas), remember.

And don't even bother to bring up the Maxim fight. Why?

Because of the heat? Or do you believe that Maxim didn?t feel the same heat? Did he have an air conditioner on his corner (same question Maxim asked when his victory was downgraded)?

Duran quit. But he quit at 147 lbs. The man was not even in his prime (which was obviously in the 135 lbs). The man was fighting professional since the 1960s! He quit in the 1980s!!! And he quit not because of a ?beating? that Leonard was inflicting to him. He quit, because he got tired of following Leonard around and of the taunting.

The fact remains that the man fought another 20 years and defeated younger and bigger guys. Even when he was clearly WAY past his prime.

Valentino

11-22-2003, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by Xplosive:

NONE of those guys were taken out in brutal fashion from one punch, or combination ect. Even at lightweight(where Duran hit very hard) he was never a one-punch KO artist. He was an accumulation puncher. Robinsion was a one punch artist, and reguraly finished guys off with single punches/combos! Hell, Ray once KILLED a man with a single left hook! Duran broke somebody?s spirit. And he did that against a guy that was bigger, younger, and faster.

Knocking out a few good fighters is not the same as breaking down somebody like De Jesus (twice), Buchanan, or putting somebody like Leonard in ?la la land? for 5 rounds (after one punched landed).

One punch power? Sure, Robinson.

But that doesn?t mean that Duran didn?t have damaging power.

It is like comparing Trinidad (a one-punch powerhouse) with Chavez (a heavy-handed destroyer). Both guys had damaging power in their punches. One took guys out with one punch. The other with an accumulation of ass-whipping punches.

Lefty

11-22-2003, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by Valentino:

Why?

Because of the heat? Or do you believe that Maxim didn?t feel the same heat? Did he have an air conditioner on his corner (same question Maxim asked when his victory was downgraded)?

Duran quit. But he quit at 147 lbs. The man was not even in his prime (which was obviously in the 135 lbs). The man was fighting professional since the 1960s! He quit in the 1980s!!! And he quit not because of a ?beating? that Leonard was inflicting to him. He quit, because he got tired of following Leonard around and of the taunting.

The fact remains that the man fought another 20 years and defeated younger and bigger guys. Even when he was clearly WAY past his prime. Got to laugh, I'm sure you read the same articles as me.
No Mas, remember, even his own countrymen turned on him.

Valentino

11-22-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Crocodillo:

buchanan is not a top 10 lightweight of all time...not even close..plus he got punched in the BALLS Buchanan is arguably the best fighter (in the last 50 years) coming out of the UK. And one of the best Lightweight fighters of all time. Arguably a top 10 lightweight. And he as well as De Jesus could have dominated that weight class for a decade if not because of fate. Sure fate = Duran.

Who do you rank above Buchanan in the 135 lbs historically speaking?
You used the term ?no way?. But unless you can support that argument, I recommend not to use that term.

Rebel

11-22-2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Xplosive:
BTW- I'm a big fan of Duran, but ENOUGH ABOUT HIM already! There's now 3 fucking threads soley devoted to licking his nuts! Open a thread about ANOTHER all time great. Maybe a NON-Latino for a change. Latinos don't get enough love all-time. Do you and Musze feel threatened or something? I've always gotten the feeling that you two are offended whenever anyone ranks a Latino over a brother.

BTW, why didn't you ever complain about the multiple Mosley, Mayweather, and RJJ threads created in the past? graemlins/headscratch.gif

We seldom talk about Duran and now you're sick of it?

[ November 22, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]

Rebel

11-22-2003, 08:58 AM

Valentino

11-22-2003, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Lefty:

Got to laugh, I'm sure you read the same articles as me.
No Mas, remember, even his own countrymen turned on him. So what?

That doesn?t take away from his other accomplishments. He quit and he loses points for quitting. That is in fact, the reason he is ARGUABLY the greatest fighter of all time. IF he would have never quit (out of frustration or anger), then he would have been CLEARLY the greatest fighter of all time.

I?ve never seen Duran quit because of the weather or because somebody is beating him (physically). Robinson quit because he couldn?t take the heat (same heat Maxim experienced).

That doesn?t take away from Robinson either. He simply didn?t paced himself and could have actually died in that fight.

But my point is the same: If you look at things objectively, and argument could be made that Duran is the GREATEST FIGHTER to ever live. I used to rank him number three, until I came with a method of evaluating fighters (to reduce bias) and he turned out to be the number one guy. Followed by Robinson and Amstrong. I can see anyone of those three ranked on top. But I cannot see anyone else. No Ali. No Pep. No Wilder. No Grebb. No Benny Leonard. No Louis.

Only Duran or Robinson or Amstrong.

Punchy

11-22-2003, 09:00 AM

[ November 22, 2003, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Punchy ]

Crocodillo

11-22-2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by El Terrible:

Latinos don't get enough love all-time. Do you and Musze feel threatened or something? I've always gotten the feeling that you two are offended whenever anyone ranks a Latino over a brother. graemlins/headscratch.gif Rebs...PUT A FREAKING FORK IN IT with your constant hispanic this..mexican that

graemlins/thumb.gif

Rebel

11-22-2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Lefty:

Got to laugh, I'm sure you read the same articles as me.
No Mas, remember, even his own countrymen turned on him. Chavez quit. Robinson quit. Willie Pep quit. Whittaker quit. Duran quit. Guess what, they were all still great fighters. They quit outside of their primes. Big difference.

[ November 22, 2003, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]

Xplosive

11-22-2003, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by El Terrible:

Latinos don't get enough love all-time. Do you and Musze feel threatened or something? I've always gotten the feeling that you two are offended whenever anyone ranks a Latino over a brother. graemlins/headscratch.gif They get PLENTY of love all time, and on THIS forum they get TOO much love! I don't have a problem with anybody ranking a Latino, or picking a Latino over a bro. Hell, most of the time I AGREE. But enough already! Latinos are not the only greats in history!

BTW- it was YOU who got offended when I suggested Pryor would have beaten Chavez, or that somebody rank "that crackhead" Whitaker over Duran(which I don't btw).

Rebel

11-22-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Xplosive:

They get PLENTY of love all time, and on THIS forum they get TOO much love! I don't have a problem with anybody ranking a Latino, or picking a Latino over a bro. Hell, most of the time I AGREE. But enough already! Latinos are not the only greats in history!

BTW- it was YOU who got offended when I suggested Pryor would have beaten Chavez, or that somebody rank "that crackhead" Whitaker over Duran(which I don't btw). I don't think Latinos are discussed anymore than anyone else. If you want to discuss forgotten fighters like Emille Griffith, Sandy Saddler, Armstrong, etc.. I'm all for it. Hardly anyone here ever shows interest in them. That's why I don't mention them.

You're forgetting that for a long time this forum was littered with a shitload of RJJ, Mosley, and Mayweather posts. Today, two of those fighters are on the down. Maybe that's why hardly anyone talks about them that much anymore.

[ November 22, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]

Rebel

11-22-2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Crocodillo:

Rebs...PUT A FREAKING FORK IN IT with your constant hispanic this..mexican that

graemlins/thumb.gif Name one other site that is run by a Mexican-American. You bet your ass I'm going to put us in the spotlight. We're the sport's backbone yet NO ONE else gives up props. There are even Aussie and Euro boxing sites that focus strictly on their boxing scenes. Do we do that here? No. If you don't like me balancing things out then you can leave and post at williepep.com or jakelamotta.com. I hear they're up to 2 posts a day. mex.gif

[ November 22, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]

Xplosive

11-22-2003, 09:09 AM

Lefty

11-22-2003, 09:10 AM

Please not another Latino against the world thread.
I'm disputing if duran is a better fighter than Robinson.

I'm a Mr whitey, so where is my bais based !!.

I tell you where. It's called boxing.

As X said, enough already.

Valentino

11-22-2003, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by El Terrible:

Latinos don't get enough love all-time. Do you and Musze feel threatened or something? I've always gotten the feeling that you two are offended whenever anyone ranks a Latino over a brother.

BTW, why didn't you ever complain about the multiple Mosley, Mayweather, and RJJ threads created in the past? graemlins/headscratch.gif

We seldom talk about Duran and now you're sick of it? I have the same feeling too. However, I?m not going to play political correctness (PC) in a boxing message board and risk objectively because of PC.

I?ve noticed the same with others African-Americans (not all), when people bring Larry Bird into the argument in basketball.

I found it bizarre.

Boxing is a sport in which a particular ?oppressed? group is going to deliver a group of great fighters. It used to be the Jews, Irish, Italians, and later the Blacks. The came the Latinos and few scattered Asians. Now are the eastern Europeans.

Soon, we are going to see less African Americans participating (successfully) in boxing. Most are either going to go to College and others with great athletic skills are going to choose basketball and baseball over boxing.

Latinos will last a lot longer. Because, most Latinos come from outside the USA (Mexico, Argentina, Nicaragua, etc). We might see less Puerto Ricans and Mexican Americans, because the opportunities for them are similar to those of the African Americans.

Rebel

11-22-2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by Xplosive:

The one thing I DON'T like is that on this forum guys like RJ, Pryor, Mosley, and even in some cases Hagler, and Pernell are called overrated, yet Duran, Chavez, Lopez, and Arguello, its like they could all walk on water! This is a boxing forum. This isn't the only place where people are going to disagree with you regarding those fighters.

I personally give Pernell and RJJ props. They're both in my top 25 all-time. Pryor is a different story. I'll admit that I'm not as high on him as others.

[ November 22, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]

Rebel

11-22-2003, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by Lefty:
Please not another Latino against the world thread.
I'm disputing if duran is a better fighter than Robinson.

I'm a Mr whitey, so where is my bais based !!.

I tell you where. It's called boxing.

As X said, enough already. Who is against the world? X is the one who brought up race in this thread.

Xplosive

11-22-2003, 09:18 AM

What bout a Hagler appreciation thread?

Rebel

11-22-2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Xplosive:
What bout a Hagler appreciation thread? Create one. But I'll have you know, Monzon was better. graemlins/dance.gif

Lefty

11-22-2003, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by El Terrible:

Who is against the world? X is the one who brought up race in this thread. Guess I read things wrong, anyway thanks for the ring ratings.
I'm graemlins/seeya.gif out for the night.

(always wanted to use this little fellow). graemlins/seeya.gif

Xplosive

11-22-2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by El Terrible:

Create one. But I'll have you know, Monzon was better. graemlins/dance.gif Hagler-Monzon would have been a pick em IMO.

Valentino

11-22-2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Xplosive:

The one thing I DON'T like is that on this forum guys like RJ, Pryor, Mosley, and even in some cases Hagler, and Pernell are called overrated, yet Duran, Chavez, Lopez, and Arguello, its like they could all walk on water! The problem is that we are comparing all time LEGENDARY greats with good or greats.

That is the case with Duran, Chavez, Lopez, Arguello?and from your list Whitaker. (Sorry, I personally think that Hagler is a bit overrated too).

Now, you don?t see anyone denying Robinson, Amstrong, Ali, Archie Moore, Leonard, Spinks, Whitaker (and yes, he is an all time great) and Joe Louis their rightful place in history. Those guys are comparable to the likes of Duran and Chavez, and Lopez and Monzon and Arguello.

gregg

11-22-2003, 10:38 AM

the reason i was asking about records is the amount of fights...did duran even come close to robinson in amount..alot of fighters today never get to 50 wins in their career. old fighters fought 50 times in a couple of years. i was just wondering if duran could have fought that many times and still held up..would any of todays fighters be able to so that, in a time were 2 fights a year are about the max.

phonetap

11-22-2003, 10:54 AM

robinson never lost in his prime weight class however duran did. doesn't matter who anyone thinks is better both are legendary figures and a case can be made for both...

Rebel

11-22-2003, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by phonetap:
robinson never lost in his prime weight class however duran did. doesn't matter who anyone thinks is better both are legendary figures and a case can be made for both... I read somewhere that Robinson had a controversial decision against Servo in his 32nd fight.

I agree with your last statement.

[ November 22, 2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: El Terrible ]

Yori Boy

11-22-2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by phonetap:
robinson never lost in his prime weight class however duran did. doesn't matter who anyone thinks is better both are legendary figures and a case can be made for both... That's true. But, Robinson DID lose to another natural welterweight much like Duran once lost to a natural lightweight.

Also, Robinson was a TALL welterweight, as a matter of fact, he was taller than Hagler whom I consider a picture perfect middleweight. When fighting at middleweight, Robinson's reach was usually superior to that of his opponents. Duran, at 5'7" wasn't even a slender lightweight. Against Hagler, and especially Hearns, Duran was dwarfed. The same cannot be said about Robinson against Olsen, Basilio, Lamotta, Fullmer etc.

Yori Boy

11-22-2003, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by El Terrible:

I read somewhere that Robinson had a controversial decision against Servo in his 32nd fight.

I agree with your last statement. According to Boxrec:

Robinson "prevailed by a narrow margin and the crowd of 15000 vociferously disapproved of the decision." The referee gave the bout to Servo, but both judges voted for Robinson. (New York Times) Referee: Billy Cavanagh

Rebel

11-22-2003, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Yori Boy:

According to Boxrec:

Robinson "prevailed by a narrow margin and the crowd of 15000 vociferously disapproved of the decision." The referee gave the bout to Servo, but both judges voted for Robinson. (New York Times) Referee: Billy Cavanagh I saw that and I also read somewhere else that it was controversial. Then again, that could be attributed to Robinson fighting in Servo's backyard.

Crocodillo

11-22-2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by El Terrible:

I saw that and I also read somewhere else that it was controversial. Then again, that could be attributed to Robinson fighting in Servo's backyard. or maybe servo was just a good fighter who maybe deserved the nod mex.gif

phonetap

11-22-2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by El Terrible:

I read somewhere that Robinson had a controversial decision against Servo in his 32nd fight.

I agree with your last statement. this doesn't mean anything to phonetap...none of the legendary fighters completely dominated EVERY opponent they fought. a careful examination of every single opponent duran fought, there could be a case (somewhere) where he won a razor thin or controversial decision.

shit, jones got booed his last fight but the judges and most people NOT at ringside thought he WON. that robinson fight could have been a case that since he didn't dominate like usual people ringside perceived it as a loss...who knows.

Rabid Kimba

11-22-2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by El Terrible:

Create one. But I'll have you know, Monzon was better. graemlins/dance.gif No he wasn't.

Monzon was overrated, Hagler wears that fucker down.

Hail Hagler, and FUCK Monzon in da ass.

Michael Matos

11-26-2003, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Crocodillo:

or maybe servo was just a good fighter who maybe deserved the nod mex.gif Servo was indeed a good fighter. He was just coming into his own as a fighter when his career was interupted by WWII and he was called up to military service. He captured the welterweight title after his discharge from the army. He then retired before losing his title in the ring, some say he retired so as not having to defend against Robinson, however Servo suffered from a variety of ailments and retired at the age of 26. He had corrective surgery for a severely deviated Septum and tried a return to the ring a year later, after being knocked out in one round by a relatively light hitting journeyman it was found that Servo suffered from a degenerative spinal disorder and he retired for good at the age of 28 with 4 losses. Two to Robinson and one to Rocky Graziano.

[ March 28, 2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Michael Matos ]

Crocodillo

11-26-2003, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by Michael Matos:

Servo was indeed a good fighter. He was just coming into his own as a fighter when his career was interupted by WWII and he was called up to military service. He captured the welterweight title after his discharge from the army. He then retired before losing his title in the ring, some say he retired so as not having to defend against Robinson, however Servo suffered from a variety of ailments and retried at the age of 26. He had corrective surgery for a seferely deviated Septum and tried a return to the ring a year later, after being knocked out in one round by a relatively light hitting journeyman it was found that Servo suffered from a degenerative spinal disorder and he retired for good at the age of 28 with 4 losses. Two to Robinson and one to Rocky Graziano. geez..where do you find this stuff graemlins/clap.gif

Rebel

11-26-2003, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Crocodillo:

geez..where do you find this stuff graemlins/clap.gif Try reading sometime. :D

Muzseman

11-26-2003, 07:33 AM

This is ridiculous. Robinson would have beaten the shit out of Duran.

There is no case for rating Duran above Robinson.

Shit, I proved that Duran doesn't have a serious case over Archie Moore.

All this is is a lame attempt by the latino cats to put one of their own in the top spot and it carries no merit outside of that.

Duran won fights in five decades...against who? Who did he beat after the age of 29?

Robinson beat and lost to Fulmer and Basillio in his mid to late 30's. They were the best middleweights of the day.

Duran never beat ANY true champion after the age of 29.

Before you crackheads cite Iran Barkley, Mike McCallum and Michael Nunn held the WBC & IBF belts.

Before you crackheads cite 12-0 Davey Moore, Benitez was the real champ and he beat Duran. Hearns beat Benitez then Hearns raped Duran.

Just more bullshit. It would be hysterical, but these morons are actually serious.

[ November 26, 2003, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Sparkebar ]

Muzseman

11-26-2003, 07:51 AM

Rebel

11-26-2003, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Sparkebar:
This is ridiculous. Robinson would have beaten the shit out of Duran.

There is no case for rating Duran above Robinson.

Shit, I proved that Duran doesn't have a serious case over Archie Moore.

All this is is a lame attempt by the latino cats to put one of their own in the top spot and it carries no merit outside of that.

Duran won fights in five decades...against who? Who did he beat after the age of 29?

Robinson beat and lost to Fulmer and Basillio in his mid to late 30's. They were the best middleweights of the day.

Duran never beat ANY true champion after the age of 29.

Before you crackheads cite Iran Barkley, Mike McCallum and Michael Nunn held the WBC & IBF belts.

Before you crackheads cite 12-0 Davey Moore, Benitez was the real champ and he beat Duran. Hearns beat Benitez then Hearns raped Duran.

Just more bullshit. It would be hysterical, but these morons are actually serious. Let's get a few things clear. There is a difference between a p4p list and an all-time greats list based on body of work: quality of opposition, consistency, and longevity.

Ken Norton would've beaten Duran to a pulp but does that mean he should rank higher than him p4p or on an all-time greats list?

Stop speaking like your word is the truth. As you've seen in this thread and the several others, many do feel that Duran and Robinson can be mentioned in the same breath. You even said Duran is arguably top 5. Enough said.

You made a case regarding Moore? The argument is no stronger than Yori's case for Duran or one of the other posters mentioning that a case could be made for 5 others in the #1 spot.

Let's flip the script. You claim that some of us here are trying to romanticize a fellow Latino? The same can be said about you.

I guess many of the white posters who acknowledged that Duran is arguably top 3, possibly the greatest of all-time, are biased towards Latinos?

I don't know why you're so angry. I don't rank Duran above Robinson. I don't know how many times I have to tell you that. You're so biased in your hatred for Duran that won't even acknowledge that a case can be made for him in the top 3. A large body of boxing historians will disagree with you. But who are they, right? They're probably all geeky white guys with a bias that favors Latinos. graemlins/lol.gif

[ November 26, 2003, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]

Rebel

11-26-2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by Sparkebar:

More bullshit from you Rebel.

Duran wasn't better than the cats you're talking about.

If you spouted Tyson, Lemmon, Spinks...there's no argument...of course he's better than those guys.

But to think there's a "case" for him ranked higher than Ali, Robinson, Moore (just off the top of my head) is ridiculous.

You spend too much time making excuses and placing conditions which cut out fighters like Joe Louis, Benny Leonard, Jack Johnson and Willie Pep. I rate Modern fighters therefore Joe Louis and Willie Pep qualify. I think highly of both of those fighters. I think a case could be made for Louis at #1 all-time heavyweight though I have Ali #1 and Louis at #2. I rank Saddler ahead of Pep but I'm not alone in my logic. Both were great fighters. I've even cited that I have no problem with anyone ranking Pep over Saddler. A case could be made for either guy.

Benny Leonard and Jack Johnson were truly great fighters but I must remain consistent in only ranking Modern fighters. It's one man's rating system. Don't get too worked up.

You obviously haven't done your homework. Try reading more carefully next time.

[ November 26, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]

Yori Boy

11-26-2003, 05:48 PM

Kind of weird, but I notice some people always having to point out Davey Moore was 12-0 thus taking away from Duran's victory. Yet Moore had already beaten Kalule who Leonard beat for one of his titles. Was Duran suppose to fight Kalule instead, because he had more fights? Or better yet, should we discount Leonard's wins? How about we discount all of Leonard's wins.

How 'bout this:

Leonard beat Benitez who was dating Ray's sister, and celebrated with Ray when he won. He then lost his title to a guy moving up two weight classes to fight him.

Ray then beat Kalule who lost to Davey Moore who was 10-0.

He then won a controversial decision over a going into retirement Hagler after Ray unfairly got the glove, number of rounds, and ring size he wanted; and an old Hagler gave away the first four rounds.

Leonard then won two world titles in one fight against Donny Lalonde who was just a weak WBC titlist who never beat anyone.

Really, Leonard did nothing.

graemlins/lol.gif tongue1.gif

TIP

11-27-2003, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by Yori Boy:
Kind of weird, but I notice some people always having to point out Davey Moore was 12-0 thus taking away from Duran's victory. Yet Moore had already beaten Kalule who Leonard beat for one of his titles. Was Duran suppose to fight Kalule instead, because he had more fights? Or better yet, should we discount Leonard's wins? How about we discount all of Leonard's wins.

How 'bout this:

Leonard beat Benitez who was dating Ray's sister, and celebrated with Ray when he won. He then lost his title to a guy moving up two weight classes to fight him.

Ray then beat Kalule who lost to Davey Moore who was 10-0.

He then won a controversial decision over a going into retirement Hagler after Ray unfairly got the glove, number of rounds, and ring size he wanted; and an old Hagler gave away the first four rounds.

Leonard then won two world titles in one fight against Donny Lalonde who was just a weak WBC titlist who never beat anyone.

Really, Leonard did nothing.

graemlins/lol.gif tongue1.gif Moore was favored 3-1 to beat Duran, probably because he was a pretty good fighter. 96-6 as an amateur, 4 golden glove titles losing in the olympic finals in a decision to Donald Curry. TIP

Michael Matos

11-27-2003, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by TIP:

Moore was favored 3-1 to beat Duran, probably because he was a pretty good fighter. 96-6 as an amateur, 4 golden glove titles losing in the olympic finals in a decision to Donald Curry. TIP Yes that is correct, Moore was indeed a favorite against Duran and rightly so in my opinion. Duran going into the Moore fight had no mas'd it against Leonard, had plodded along in wins against Luigi Minchillo and Nino Gonzalez, had gotten his ears boxed off against Benitez and was at his pathetic best in losing a ten round decision to Kirkland Laing. He then "rebounded" with wins over Johnny Batten and and a shot Jose Cuevas. He was essentialy a .500 fighter at that point in his career.

Since this discussion centers around Duran and Robinson. Tell me do you ever think Ray Robinson would be a 3-1 undrdog to someone who only had 12 professional fights?

TIP

11-27-2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Michael Matos:

Yes that is correct, Moore was indeed a favorite against Duran and rightly so in my opinion. Duran going into the Moore fight had no mas'd it against Leonard, had plodded along in wins against Luigi Minchillo and Nino Gonzalez, had gotten his ears boxed off against Benitez and was at his pathetic best in losing a ten round decision to Kirkland Laing. He then "rebounded" with wins over Johnny Batten and and a shot Jose Cuevas. He was essentialy a .500 fighter at that point in his career.

Since this discussion centers around Duran and Robinson. Tell me do you ever think Ray Robinson would be a 3-1 undrdog to someone who only had 12 professional fights? No.

Rebel

11-27-2003, 04:52 PM

Great point Matos.

ericjw

03-21-2004, 09:40 PM

Just read this thread for the first time....

Did Ray Robinson really quit against Joey Maxim?

From the tapes I've seen of it, they stopped it because he was stumbling around the ring, not able to stand up straight, half-conscious, exhausted by the heat.

KoCav

03-27-2004, 08:01 AM

Robinson looked better than Duran to me, but he also beat up on a lot of ordinary Dagoes. Plus, who has seen footage of Robinson as a welterweight?

Doesn't matter to me. Ray Leonard was better than Duran.

TIP

03-27-2004, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by KoCav:
Robinson looked better than Duran to me, but he also beat up on a lot of ordinary Dagoes. Plus, who has seen footage of Robinson as a welterweight?

Doesn't matter to me. Ray Leonard was better than Duran. Are you saying that Leonard was a better welter than Duran was a light?

Valentino

03-27-2004, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by TIP:

Are you saying that Leonard was a better welter than Duran was a light? That would be INSANE. Considering that Leonard was perhaps the MOST innactive fighter of the greats in boxing history.Duran was CONSIDERABLY GREATER fighter than Leonard and form a historical perspective. And a greater fighter skills wise too.

Camacho fights with both showed that.

KoCav

03-27-2004, 08:40 AM

I'm saying Leonard was a better welterweight than Duran was a lightweight. I'm saying Leonard was a better fighter, period.

Valentino

03-27-2004, 09:19 AM

Sorry to disagree. The ONLY fighters that have an argument to call themselves greater at a particular weight class than Duran at lightweight are

Greb at Middle, Robinson at 147, Wilde at Fly, and possibly Pep at Feather. And STILL, what Duran did at 135 lbs is nothing less than IMPRESSIVE.

He against the cr?me in that particular weight class and defeated practically every style. I?m venture to say that he fought at least 50 or 60 fights at Lightweight.

I was never a Duran fan (been an Arguello fan at the time and a Leonard fan too). But I consider him the GREATER fighter to ever live.

KoCav

03-27-2004, 09:34 AM

Greb, who only exists in history books, has a stronger claim than Leonard does to being better than Duran?

Valentino

03-27-2004, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by KoCav:
Greb, who only exists in history books, has a stronger claim than Leonard does to being better than Duran? Not to be better overall, but to be better in a particular weight division. Heck, to be better overall too, now that I think about it.

The man is the ONLY fighter to defeat Tunney (which we have seen fight) and he manage to defeat somebody as great as Mickey Walker.

TIP

03-27-2004, 10:17 AM

I have no problem with someone thinking Leonard was the better fighter. Clearly Leonard had all the tools, little if any weakness and proved himself to be a great fighter. I respectfully disagree though. My reasoning would be because of the first fight between them when they both were at their best. Duran gave up all the physical advantages and beat Leonard at a weight class less than his best and Ray's best weight. IMO Duran in that fight showed more power and better defense than Ray did. I also believe no fighter in history ever stepped up a full division and defeated a fighter the calaber of Ray Leonard. TIP

Joonie73

03-28-2004, 06:58 AM

TIP, what about Harada beating Jofre?

1. Do you think Jofre wasn't at the level of Leonard?

2. Do you think Jofre was a lot further from his prime than Leonard was from his?

3. Do you think Harada's win was less decisive than Duran's or indeed he may not have won?

I'd assume it's 1 of these 3.

Originally posted by TIP:
I have no problem with someone thinking Leonard was the better fighter. Clearly Leonard had all the tools, little if any weakness and proved himself to be a great fighter. I respectfully disagree though. My reasoning would be because of the first fight between them when they both were at their best. Duran gave up all the physical advantages and beat Leonard at a weight class less than his best and Ray's best weight. IMO Duran in that fight showed more power and better defense than Ray did. I also believe no fighter in history ever stepped up a full division and defeated a fighter the calaber of Ray Leonard. TIP

TIP

03-28-2004, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Joonie73:
TIP, what about Harada beating Jofre?

1. Do you think Jofre wasn't at the level of Leonard?

2. Do you think Jofre was a lot further from his prime than Leonard was from his?

3. Do you think Harada's win was less decisive than Duran's or indeed he may not have won?

I'd assume it's 1 of these 3.

Two and three. Jofre was 30 and Leonard 24. Harada was seven years younger and Duran was 5 years older. Lower weight class prime younger and fade earlier. Jofre was having weight problems also. Duran's W over Leonard was more decisive also. TIP

Michael Matos

03-28-2004, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by TIP:
I also believe no fighter in history ever stepped up a full division and defeated a fighter the calaber of Ray Leonard. TIP While you may indeed be correct, the statement is a little misleading. Duran didn't step up a full division and defeat Leonard fresh out of the box. He campagned at welterweight for over a year before taking the fight. Frsh out of the box award goes to Michael Spinks

TIP

03-28-2004, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Michael Matos:

While you may indeed be correct, the statement is a little misleading. Duran didn't step up a full division and defeat Leonard fresh out of the box. He campagned at welterweight for over a year before taking the fight. Frsh out of the box award goes to Michael Spinks You're correct. I wasn't meaning to imply he stepped immediatly up from lightweight. TIP

Crocodillo

03-28-2004, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by KoCav:
Robinson looked better than Duran to me, but he also beat up on a lot of ordinary Dagoes. Plus, who has seen footage of Robinson as a welterweight?

Doesn't matter to me. Ray Leonard was better than Duran. fuck you honky....dont blame the italians for being the only good white fighters around

Tam-Tam

03-28-2004, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by KoCav:
I'm saying Leonard was a better welterweight than Duran was a lightweight. I'm saying Leonard was a better fighter, period. Thats your opinion and one which a few people share (not a majority though, mind you)...but this entire thread is a bit silly.

Who here can comment on how good a welter, Ray Robinson was? Sure, we've seen him fuck up some A grade middles, but sorry...the difference between the fighter at 147 and the fighter at 160 has traditionally been huge.

I can't see how we can break this one down.

DEAGLE

04-29-2004, 12:42 PM

I'll make this REAL EASY,Ray lost 1 FIGHT in 132 outings.Where in ANYBODIES MIND can Duran hope to compete with that.ADD this to the MIX,many times when Ray was a WELTER he beat up on 160lbers.Tell me how many welters Duran beat when he was a 135lber???I can tell you right now,none.When Duran lost to Ray in the 2nd fight,he was pretty much lost & in space for his next several fights,this was not a Duran who was the BOSS or the BULLY this was the lost SHEEP DURAN.He gained redemption by beating Moore no doubt,BUT then TOMMY comes along & takes off his F#CKEN HEAD in 2 rounds,can ANYONE tell me who stopped RAY ROBINSON in 2 rounds??? AGAIN NO ONE!!!1 more SMALL POINT,Ray Robinson went on to fight 219 times,after nearly 100 years as a fighter Duran has much LESS FIGHTS,MUCH less K.O's,MUCH less WINS,and more or less the same amount of losses,yet he fought 100+ fights less then Ray.Robinson simply PUT is THE REASON why the name P4P even is a TOPIC we discuss,the ONLY man in history that can be called P4P #1 is the GREAT SUGAR RAY ROBINSON,this HONOR is his,& his ALONE,not Pep,Not Greb,Not Duran,not CHAVEZ,not even the GREAT ALI can lay claim to RAY ROBINSONS Title Period end of CASE!!!EAGLE

[ April 29, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: DEAGLE ]